The World of The Gunny

New Deseret Discussion Thread.

Mav, good question.

The answer is you will have to build a training ground for them. A barracks is not necessary, only needed if you want to form a proffessional military.

Think of level one training as Militia Training.



Cheers, Thor

Please update your distribution orders with your scouting party and their equipment.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

Will update orders shortly.

Do have 1 issue. Timpanogos cave/Provo Canyon are North and East of Provo. I know, I've been there several times. So my scouting party would indeed go West to get to the mouth of the canyon. Going East will take you up around big bend and to Heber. It's actually quite a nice drive, going south to Provo canyon from SLC, east up the canyon and around north through Heber and Park City and then west back to SLC through Parley's Canyon. Definitely not a trip to take this time of year as Heber & Park City get plenty of snow.

Of course, it is your game world so if we're on the other side of the valley, we are. Utah Lake is on the west side of the valley.

Oh, that does bring another question to mind. With my research teams running around outside trying to figure things out, they won't be able to gather any meaningful amount of resources. So does the shelter produce anything besides food and water?

Oh, and I couldn't find the required amounts of food and water for a population. I know you've listed it somewhere but I just can't find it. So how much do I need to send out with my scouting team? The resource researchers and their guards are right around the shelter so they just come inside at night and have access to shelter food and water.

Which reminds me, do I need to arm my security section? Or does the fact that it's maned provide advanced security for the shelter?

Sorry for so many questions.
--Mav

Mav, you know that to your Southwest about 2 miles is the ghost town of Ophir, and to the south is the ghost town of Merkur. Ophir is located along, what is recorded in your failing db, the Ophir Canyon Road in Tooele County. (If I read the map right). So you know the old city of Provo and the Utah Lake are to your east.

Your ancestors chose this area due to their knowledge that this was a rich mining area at one time.


Your shelter can replicate what you need to survive, but cannot manufacture anything for use outside of the shelter. (Game balance purposes).

Each unit of food and water can feed and hydrate 10 people for 1 week.

As long as your security section is fully manned your shelter has a significant advantage in any attack on the shelter.

Mav, no problem with any amount of questions. Questions means there is proper a proper communication flow.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Scragg.

Also 10 men can carry 1 unit of food, but it takes 20 to carry 1 unit of water, right?

Correct. There is always the option to drink the water found while exploring.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Scragg.

Just making sure, so he doesn't send out a party that keels over mid journey.

True, and good heads up notice.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

Ok, you've put us across the valley from the actual Timpanogos. Which is fine, it's just on the opposite side of the valley on the far side of the Oquir mountains from Timpanogos cave. Which would mean the exploration party is going down to Tooele, not to Provo, which is on the far side of the lake over the mountain.
Going to Tooele is about a day's hike each way. Getting to the army base at Ft. Williams means going south and east to Eagle Canyon pass and then north. That's about a week round trip. To get to Provo or SLC from there is another week round trip.

And while Ophir canyon is in a very mineral rich area, it's water poor. What water there is is mountain runoff and the Oquirs don't get nearly as much snow as the Wasatch, on the East side of Salt Lake and Utah valleys. Piping in water from Utah Lake or from the Great Salt Lake is easy enough with modern equipment but it would need alot of purification and the pipelines would be hugely vulnerable and a major week point in a shelter. There's not even a good spot to put a reservoir in Ophir canyon and the stream which is there for only a couple of months during the year, would not useful in any meaningful way. Merkur does have a small reservoir a few canyons over but with the rough canyon terrain you'd have to go into the valley and south and back up Merkur's canyon to get to it easily.

So we'll send them to check out Ophir and Stockton and on to Tooele if they don't run into any too scary.

And so the "buildings" listed in the shelter don't actually do anything? I can't even use the tool shop to make axes and the like?

--Mav

Mav, you can use your tool shop to make tools, and your ammo shop to make ammunition, once you have the proper resources.

Gotta let you have some sort of initial trade goods.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

Ok, thank you.

So the other buildings don't do anything? Machine shop, Security, Medical Bay? I'm assuming Life Support and Shelter Maint need to be fully staffed to get the food and water production.

--Mav

The machine shop fixes the things that break in the shelter and provides replacement parts, Security keeps the people from killing each other, living in a big metal box tends to make people crazy over time, and the medical bay heals the people and controls the rigid breeding schedule.

Shelter Life support is what makes the air, water, and food. The Shelter Maint fixes things the break down, but do not need new or repaired parts.

Without those three facilities the shelter would fall apart real fast.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

I've though of one other major issue with the Ophir location. In the Oquirs there are only scrub trees and brush, nothing that could be turned into useful lumber. A significant change in weather conditions that improved the water supply would change that. Otherwise, my closest source of wood is in the Wasatch mountains, and I'll never be able to build up enough resources going that far to do anything.

--Mav

Originally posted by Scragg.

And that's how trade caravans are formed.

Mav, correct. Welcome to the wastelands. Nobody has everything they need. In fact, a lot of players have no access to wood. Check out their maps.

It also means you will, more than likely, have to migrate to find a steady flow of resources.

Feere, is correct. Seek out trade. I am sure you can get a LOT of raw mats with produced goods like tools.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

Can't make tools without raw materials. And I have no way to convert raw material to usable materials to turn into finished goods.

Even something as simple as making axes, you need metalworking III to get iron out of the ground. To get metalworking III you have to have an education level of 2, which you have to have a school which needs iron. Unless we can use scavenged scrap metal for building and tools.

I do need to relocate anyway, but without any way to carry stuff besides men I can't go far enough to get anywhere useful. This means I'm going to have to rely friendly natives since I can't train and have almost no firepower. Yes, I have some modern weapons but any trained force should be able to defeat me with 2~300 men in scrap metal armor and using spears. This just looks like a quick road to failure to me.

--Mav

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

I don't mean to sounds like I'm whining here. I'm happy to take my lumps as long as it's working as intended.

--Mav

Dude, you have extreme firepower. Assault rifles, combat shotguns, riot shields. Think about it, most people on the outside are armed with, if they are lucky, pipe rifles and zip guns as high technology. Then you can repair any breakages and can manufacture more ammunition. These are extreme advantages. You can conquer any village in existence near you.

NP bud. But all it says is iron, not the form it takes. So yes, you can use scrap iron. And yes, so far it is W.A.D. Running a FOSH is intended to be very hard. They have a huge advantage right off the bat. So have to be limited.

But not to be unfair, all of my restrictions are based on projections of fallout shelters designed for long term habitation beyond 2 years.



Cheers, Thor

Originally posted by Scragg.

Thank you for bringing up the heavy artillery. I'm out here in the boondocks sweating over my peoples being attacked... well by anything. If I had guns I'd have checkpoints set up everywhere collecting tolls to pass and interrogating everyone that passed for sites of future conquest.

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

With 30 M-16, 30 .30 Pistols and 15 combat shotguns, 60 riot shields and no training, my total combat advantage is 202.5+82.5+71.25+9(using metal shield modifier number)=365.25 + 202.5 if I have all my handaxes in action=567.75. Since I'm untrained, this is final score. not bad, but also more than 500 men, which I can't keep on the campaign for more than 3 days because I can't carry enough food. This also reduced my population below what is required to run my shelter and is actual using PP for some of the combat power.

That means an equal force of 500 men with training and nothing but sticks is almost an equal fight. Put them in cloth armor and with hand axes and they have a combat advantage of 350, so they would have a total combat value of 1350 to my 1067.75 so I'd have to find some way to earn a 30% bonus just to make it an even fight. And without army specialists or trained men I see no way to make up a 30% difference.

Now an opponent having 500 men armed and trained is going to be unlikely but 200 isn't unreasonable. So if I commit my entire armory and non required population of 200 I've got some chance, 644 vs 540, a 17% advantage. They'd make that up if they ~30 level 2 solders. And I'm still limited to 3 days of travel due to food and water. And I would be unable to bring any of the spoils home if I didn't recover handcarts or wagons+animals.

That seems a losing proposition to me. I guess I'll just have to rely on my charming personality.

--Mav

Originally posted by Mavikfelna.

Feere, just to give you the contrast, you have the ability to build a training ground. In 7 months time you could have 300 trained men with scrap swords (this is 1 month to harvest wood, 1 month to build a saw mill and water power plant (assuming I reading the requirements correctly for the mill), 1 month to make the lumber, 1 month to build the training grounds and 3 months for training.

You can equip an additional 225 men with swords and your entire population with spears.

Just your trained men will be 600+225(assuming long sword)=825. You add another 440+330(longsword and spear have the same value)=770 for your men. if each PP also has a spear then they'll add 680(assuming a PP=0.5men)+1020(spears)=1700. Total of all is 3295. And with handcarts you can sustain a campaign with your ENTIRE population for 25 weeks. For just your trained men, you can carry 5250 food in the handcarts which will last you 175 weeks. If you have a way to carry water on the carts and carried 1250 food and water it would last 41 weeks. And leave you with 30 carts for hauling other stuff.

So, unless my fallout shelter defenses are truly tremendous, you could move in on me with your entire population and have close to a 100% advantage vs my entire population. I don't think you have anything at all to fear regarding defense.

Thor, in addition to the bottling plant, you should make a cooper shop to make barrels so you can "pack" water using wood instead of glass. After all, barrels have been the usual method of mass portable water storage for a long long time, long before bottles. Clay could also be used to make pottery vessels for water storage at a kiln.

Thanks,
--Mav

Originally posted by Scragg.

You have freaking guns! My people would more than likely flee in the face of overwhelming firepower. You're forgetting the psychological side of warfare, a weapon that the Old Ones used to fight? Holy shit! I bet even a highwayman that has a gun without bullets could make a decent living scaring the bejesus out of people. This isn't a realtime strategy game where you can send units to their deaths like mindless ants until you overwhelm the enemy.

Mav, you know how I design games by now, and you should know the players do not know all of the modifiers for combat.

Trust me when I tell you, ANY settlement within 30 miles of your current location would be a walkover for you. And yes, your shelter has a huge assed door that no village could overcome, no matter their numbers.

As a hint, there are, as of now, more than 2 dozen combat mods players do not know about. So, yeah, you would wipe the desert with their backsides, unless you did something really stupid like run into the middle of a rad zone.



Cheers, Thor

After observing the problems that were encounted yesterday I have halted time flow to make some adjustments. Listed below are the changes introduced.

1. The major flaw is the level of beginning technology, for all types of population except for Nomads. I am comfortable with their current levels. The technology may have fallen, but it did not entirely go away.

All villager populations will get the current changes:
1. A Tribal Education Level of 3
2. All Agricultural technologies up to and including Scratch Plow, but not to include Terror Handling unless given by the GM.
3. All cultural technologies up to and including the Alphabet.
4. All Industrial technologies up to and including Engineering Level II.
5. Military Technologies to include Simple Bow, Lance, and Pipe Rifles.
6. All Scientific Technologies up to and including Metallurgy Level III, along with Gunpowder.


All Fallout Shelter populations will get the following changes:
1. A tribal Education Level of 5
2. All Agricultural Technologies except for Terror Handling, but must still fullfill all other requirements before getting the bonuses, and must have an operating lower level of farms or ranch before being able to build the more advanced items. Having the book learning is no replacement for practical experience.
3. All Cultural technologies up to and including the Alphabet. All Industrial technologies up to and including Mining & Quarrying Level V.
4. All Military tehcnologies up to and including Magazine Rifles, but not including Terror Handing.
5. All Science technologies up to and including Pasteurization.


2. Beginning resource levels. I had hoped that the random allocation would cover all that was needed.

All villager population s go ahead and add to your sheets the following:

1. 100 units of lumber
2. 100 units of raw wood
3. if you do not have them already, 100 sheep
4. 100 units of wool.
5. 100 axes, scrap
6. 100 picks & shovels
7. if you have a fishing harbor add 100 fishing nets


All Fallout Shelter populations will add the following items to their sheets.

1. 100 lumber
2. 100 steel
3. 50 hand radio sets
4. 100 units ethanol
5. 10 dirt bikes, converted to run on ethanol already.

All of these supplies were stocked by your ancestors for the day the shelter was opened on the brave new world.


I will post this on every player's discussion thread to make sure all get the word.



Cheers, Thor